Talk:Becky Baker/@comment-4689567-20141007041114/@comment-3284502-20150915035908
Oh my God, I think I need an oxygen tank, I'm laughing so hard. Let's get a couple things out of the way 1) I never said Becky was close minded because she was a Christian - I said she was close minded because she was a bigot. A homophobic and transphobic bigot to be precise. And I do not call her one because she is Christian - I call her one because she treated LGBT students like garbage (Ex. Tristan and Adam). 2) I really do not care why someone is bigoted - there is no defense for bigotry. Either stop being bigoted or please stop talking - not because you don't have the right to talk, but because others do not want to here your bigotry (Note: I'm using the general "you" here, I'm not actually talking about you, Blueft4). 3) And what defense can Becky possibly give about her bigotry that would make it okay? I'm genuinely curious now. Being raised that way is not an excuse, because as you said, she is an individual with a mind of her own who should know better. It being her religion is not an excuse because she should know by now she has no right to force her religion on anyone. 4) I say Adam was right in that conversation because imo, he was. Nowhere did he tell Becky she couldn't be Christian, he told her not to be a bigot. Those are two VERY different things. He also told her that people who share her bigoted beliefs cause LGBT to get hurt or to hurt themselves. That is true. I'm not seeing where he was in the wrong, except on one front, which leads me to my next point. 5) Free speech is one thing. Hate speech is quite another. What Becky was doing was hate speech. And frankly, even with free speech, just because you have the right to talk doesn't make anybody obligated to listen. You are entitled to tell people to stop talking when they're upsetting you or annoying you. I can easily see how Adam would be angry with her, given her hateful and bigoted protest against the play seemed to be linked to a gay child (because, need I remind you, Tristan was BARELY 14 YEARS OLD?) going missing. Frankly, I would not want to hear her excuses either, because I'd be too busy looking for said child. And while Becky was NOT in fact linked to Tristan going missing, Adam had no way of knowing that. Since she was the only person who (outwardly) had any motives or reason to get rid of the gay co-star, I can easily understand why suspicion was on her. Not because she's Christian, as you so constantly claim, but because she's a bigot. 6) Even if Becky's bigotry was based on secular ideas, Adam would still be justified in telling her to shut her mouth because bigotry is bigotry and nobody has the right to be bigoted. 7) You seem to be misunderstanding what tolerance means in this context. Tolerance in this context, means accepting and supporting marginalized groups who do not get all the support of society (for example, LGBT people). When someone like Becky speaks out against them and is ignored, that is not considered intolerance because they are ignoring something ACTIVELY going against the idea of tolerance. Tolerating the intolerant is an exercise in futility. And no, Christians are not considered a marginalized group because as a religion, they still have the most power in the Western world as a whole (though I will admit, atheists and agnostics are making gains) and historically have been so for centuries. They have power and privilege others do not, meaning they are not considered marginalized. 8) Being judgemental against someone for being trans and being judgemental against someone for being bigoted are two very, very different things. You are born trans. You are not born bigoted. Being rude, bigoted, and discriminatory are choices Becky made. Adam did not choose to be trans. Judging someone for how they're born or the way they are and judging someone for their choices and their actions are two separate breeds of cow. 9) You're right in that I don't want there to be more understanding of bigotry - that is to say, I don't want more people acting like you have to accept people being bigoted because they have the right to be. Yes, they have the right to be. And I have the right to call them out and tell them to stop saying hateful, hurtful, discriminatory nonsense, at least while I'm around, because I do not want to hear it. I wouldn't have an issue with Becky explaining WHY she ended up bigoted, because that's something else entirely. But you're absolutely right I don't want to hear her try to justify being bigoted. There's no excuse for that and it's a waste of time. Call me close minded if you want, but I really could not give a hot tin shit why she thinks it's acceptable to be bigoted. Why she turned out bigoted? Sure, could be sympathetic or interesting. Why it's acceptable to behave in a bigoted manner? Uh uh. Good bye. You're done, hon. 10) Adam did not go to Church "once" - he said he was a regular goer of a Church as a child. When they went to meet the Bakers, Becky then told them he was still Catholic, implying he still goes at least some of the time. He even had a Church funeral. He understands Christians because he IS Christian. Same with Marco, who went to Church EVERY WEEK and was clearly raised by Christian parents. Darcy and Clare also went to Church regularly and were very devout - they may not be any longer, but they were at one time. They just weren't bigoted about it, ergo, no hate about it. 11) Why would someone have to understand someone's bigoted beliefs towards them? He didn't dislike her because she was Christian - he disliked her because she was homophobic and transphobic (not to mention hypocritical - it's okay to admit the Bible is outdated when it comes to science, but not with LGBT rights?). As is his right. Becky can explain why she feels that way until the cows come home - but she cannot excuse it. There IS no excuse to treat someone as beneath you because you're a bigot. I don't think I'm being hypocritical here, because I don't hate anyone for being Christian - but I DO hate plenty of people for being bigots. Because, again, there's no excuse for that. 12) Say they decided to have Adam change - how would you go about doing so without endorsing the idea Becky's bigotry is acceptable? I'd really love to know - I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm genuinely curious how you feel Adam could change without portraying Becky's bigotry as sympathetic or acceptable. 13) Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Adam SHOWN to be wrong for ignoring Becky in Tonight, Tonight? They had him realize it's not fair to expect people to change overnight, that it's a lot to take in, and that he didn't know what Becky had to say until he shut up and let her talk - at which point he learned she was in love with him and wanted to keep seeing him. 14) Becky was never portrayed as brainwashed. She was portrayed as very religious which was IN PART due to how she was raised....except even when she began to reject her parents views of Christianity, she STILL believed in God and considered herself Christian. She just no longer believed her parents views specifically. Are you talking about when she was sent to "reparative" therapy? But that didn't work, so clearly THAT didn't brain wash her either. Actually, Becky seems to reject the idea that Chrisitanity can only be based on what others tell you and being Christian for other people, based on how upset she was when Jenna "converted" because of Luke. 15) Once again, I don't care if Becky speaks or not - it doesn't bother me one way or the other. Heck, it might have been a good idea to let her speak more with Adam. That doesn't bother me. Her bigotry did. I was under the impression you were upset her bigoted views weren't treated with equal weight, but if this is just about her speaking, then fine, fair enough. I apologize for any misunderstanding. 16) Everyone else is annoyed you went for the personal remarks - I never said anything rude about you as a person, I only argued with your post. Frankly, I really don't care if you think I'm close minded. But since I love a good discussion/argument, I'll keep going. 17) Adam liked Becky even way back when she was bigoted - remember when he asked her to see the play with him, only to change his mind when she was using homophobia to protest the play? He didn't like her "only when she started to change" - he always liked her and was drawn to her. He just didn't agree with her. 18) A lot of the time Christians are played as antagonists in LGBT people's stories because in real life, a lot of Christians ARE bigoted against them. As long as there are other, non-bigoted Christians (Clare, Darcy, Adam, Drew, Marco, and, later, Becky and Spinner) I don't really see the issue. Luke, Kim, and Linus are really the only ones who're transphobic and homophobic the whole way through, and Luke's also a rapist, a bully, and a whiny asshole. Not really a good person in ANY respects, and I don't really think it's fair to pin it on his Christianity, especially since he's clearly just using it as a crutch to be a douche canoe. Linus and Kim are basically used just to contrast with the non-dickish Christians, Marco, Darcy, and later on, Spinner. 19) I never really saw the show as being anti-Christian, especially since so many Christian characters are really REALLY cool. Darcy, for example, was religious the entire way through her run of the show (even when she rebelled, she still went to Bible camp, the camp that helped her get over her rape was religious, or at least sponsored by her Church, iirc, and she went with her missionary on a trip to Kenya - she NEVER gave up her faith). Clare was pretty religious the entire way through too - it stopped getting much focus after season 10 or 11, but I never got the impression she stopped believing. Just that she didn't talk about it as often. Which is fair enough, as she developed other interests, didn't have faith as something in common with many of her friends, and no longer attended a religious school. Said religious school is what I blame for her lack of sexual knowledge, incidentally. Not because Christians are naive or anything, but because most religious schools in that province don't have the best sex education. I should know, I attended a religious high school. It wasn't BAD information, but there was nothing about toys, kinks, LGBT information, abortion, alternative positions, and certainly not about masturbation. If Becky and Clare both attended religious schools prior to Degrassi, it makes sense that neither of them know much about those things - it's not that they're naive or innocent, it's just that they, most likely, were never taught. Especially since they knew what sex was and the basics of what it entailed anyways. And that doesn't extend to other Christians either - Darcy clearly knew what sex was - she just didn't want to have it. She also clearly knew about some of the other things I listed above - I'm pretty sure she did anyways, since she hung out with Jane and Manny and I doubt they minced their words. She might not have LIKED hearing about it, but I'm fairly certain she knew what it was. Likewise, Luke (sadly) knows about those things too. He's just a dick about them. Drew, Adam, and Marco knew, but they also lived with it, so that makes sense. As for the negative portrayals (Linus, Kim, early Spinner, and Luke especially) I think it's just fair to say that the show doesn't like bullies or bigots of any sort. It never has. Alex, Jay, and everyone who bullied Marco caught shit from people like Craig and Jimmy, whom were PHENOMENAL friends. Everyone was annoyed with Hazel when they thought she was Islamophobic. It was made VERY clear Alex, Jay, and Spinner were wrong to bully Rick. Dallas wasn't considered truly "good" until his bullying came to bite him in the ass and he was remorseful and changed. Bianca, Fitz, and Owen were seen as just as awful for being homophobic and transphobic as Becky and Luke - hell, I'd argue they were seen as worse than Becky EVER was, because Becky at least wasn't coming from a place of malice, just a place of ignorance. I didn't bring up Fitz as an "evil Christian character" or a "good Christian character" because he really doesn't do much to anyone by the time of his conversion - Eli certainly thinks he's dangerous (and not without cause) but he doesn't really stay long enough for us to find out whether or not he is. I don't recall if he interacts with Adam after his conversion or not, but I don't think he uses his Christianity to hate on anyone or lift anyone up - he just IS one now. I also don't think that just because a character doesn't mention being Christian much, doesn't mean they no longer are one - it just means their faith isn't relevant to the conversation. A character who DID mention it very often, even when irrelevant, would be another stereotype. As for your desire to have a Christian character who is wholly good without conflicts relating to their religion, I think there might be a problem. Degrassi's whole point is to shake their characters to the core and put them through hell, because characters are like geodes. To see what they're made of, you have to BREAK them. Most main characters simply don't leave the way they were when they show up. If a character's faith is really important to them (or even if it isn't - it's simply part of the way they were raised/etc.) it will be shaken up and tested at some point and there will be conflict regarding it. That's just the way it is. And it probably won't be mentioned too often if it's not relevant to the story at hand, just because they have a plot to move forward and can't spend too much time on something not relevant to the story at hand. Do you mean nobody has a problem WITH them being Christian? Because the only people I recall as being OUTRIGHT against Christianity is Eli, and he was shown to be being rude and hurtful, and Bianca at the funeral, and that was more about her lashing out in grief than actually thinking she was stupid. We were clearly supposed to be sympathizing with Clare and Becky, not Eli and Bianca. Sometimes people think certain aspects might be weird (like when Becky pretended to consider music a sin and Dallas thought it was weird), but nobody is outright rude about it, except the above two, and some of the people who teased Darcy, but that was more because it was Darcy than being Christian. Most people really don't give people shit for being Christian - being a bigot or being rude is something else, and it would happen even if the person weren't religious at all. 20) I said "Goodbye" because I honestly did not expect to return to this thread. I didn't even know you were still on the wiki. I figured I'd give my two cents and then just leave it. If I'd known you'd want to continue the discussion, I would not have included the "goodbye". I was not trying to shut you down. Once again, I apologize for any misunderstanding or if I hurt your feelings at any point in any of my posts, as that was not my intent. I don't want to shut anybody down. Everybody is free to say what they want - I'm just saying that people are not obligated to continue listening without response when people say something they find rude, bigoted, discriminatory, or even just annoying. And I'm not referring to you when I say that - I'm speaking generally again. Just to avoid any potential confusion. If you'd like to keep discussing, I'm always game for it. @ Yazzy, Elle, and Dani - I love you girls so much. Thank you all. <3